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Libertarianism and Liberty

How Not to Argue for Limited Government and Lower Taxes

This article is part of Libertarianism and Liberty, a forum on arguments for libertarian policy conclusions.



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Libertarianism presents itself as a simple, clear, and principled view. It appears to provide a moral basis, in the value of individual liberty, for a specific political program of limited government and low taxes. The moral significance of liberty seems obvious even to those who believe it is not the only thing that matters. But the claim of the libertarian political program to be founded on this value is illusory. Three lines of thought lead to conclusions that might be seen as libertarian. But none of these shows that respect for the value of individual liberty should lead one to support the political program of low taxes and limited government that libertarians are supposed to favor.



• • •


One route to libertarian conclusions appeals to an idea of productive efficiency. As Hayek argued, the market is, in an important range of cases, a more efficient mechanism for deciding what to produce than decisions by any central planner. This is so for two reasons. The first is the flow of information: no planner could acquire information about what consumers want to buy as efficiently as the market does. The second is capture by interests: decisions by state-owned industries are likely to be guided by the interests of those who run or work in those industries rather than by the goal of efficient overall production. Where they apply, these arguments are powerful. As recent financial crises show, however, these considerations do not lead to the conclusion that government regulation is always a bad thing. And even Hayek would not deny that government intervention is needed in the case of externalities such as pollution and climate change. The considerations just mentioned provide some guidance about how to deal with these problems, but they provide no reason for thinking that they should be dealt with by simply leaving it to the market.

Whatever policies they support, however, these considerations are not based on the value of liberty for an individual. This argument assigns individual liberty only an instrumental value: it is important only as a means to economic efficiency. “Efficiency” sounds important. But efficiency is only as important as the goal that is efficiently promoted. The value that Hayek’s argument takes as fundamental is the satisfaction of individual preferences. More specifically, it is the satisfaction of preferences that can be expressed through the market, the weights given to these preferences being determined by individuals’ willingness and ability to pay for their satisfaction. Since individuals with more money are willing to pay more for the satisfaction of a given preference, this means in practice that what is maximized is the satisfaction of preferences weighted by the wealth and income of those whose preferences they are.

Many of the factors affecting the degree of control individuals have over their lives—such as the legal system and the organization of the economy—are not the subject of preferences expressed through the market. To the degree that they are not, market outcomes will not be sensitive to the value individuals place on their own liberty. For example: The productive efficiency of a market economy depends importantly on its ability to shift resources from industries that are no longer needed or efficient—such as typewriters manufacturers in an era of the computer—to those making products for which there is greater demand—such as computers and software to use on them. This efficiency is attained at a cost to workers, who must find new employment when such changes occur. Workers who are constantly subject to such disruption have less control over their lives than they would in a more stable society. To determine what system is to be preferred, some decision must be made about how to balance the conflicting values of productive efficiency and individuals’ control over their lives. The market itself does not answer this question, since the choice between different systems is not something that individuals express a preference about through their market behavior.



• • •


A second, quite different view is what might be called “motorcycle-helmet libertarianism,” which gives fundamental place to the value of having control over how one’s life goes in important respects. The idea of control that this line of thinking appeals to is not a right but a value—something that individuals have reason to want. The importance of the difference between rights and values is demonstrated by an argument of Robert Nozick’s. In Chapter 8 of Anarchy, State, and Utopia Nozick considers, as a possible objection to his view, that in a society of the kind he is recommending some people would lack control over their lives in important respects. In a skillful rhetorical move, he responds to this objection by asking whether there is “a right to have a say about what affects you,” and he quickly and convincingly shows that there is no such right. As he puts it, few things affect your life more deeply than whom you marry. So a right to have a say over what affects you would include a right to have a say about whether your beloved will marry someone else, thereby becoming unavailable to marry you. But clearly you have no such right.

An unregulated market leaves many workers with little control over their lives. Their liberty also matters morally.

What this argument shows is that the objection Nozick is considering should not put it in terms of a supposed right. It does not show that having control over one’s life in certain respects is not an important value that needs to be taken into consideration in deciding what rights people have. Indeed, Nozick himself seems to appeal to such a value when he says that his system of “libertarian” rights is appropriate for us because we are “distinct individuals each with his own life to lead.” 1

The distinction involved here is one of several that can be referred to, somewhat misleadingly, as between positive and negative rights. As I have said, however, it is not a distinction between two kinds of rights but between rights and considerations that must be taken into account in justifying them. The lesson to draw from it is not that there are no “positive rights”—rights to particular benefits—but rather that not every desirable thing that is relevant to justifying rights can be directly transformed into a “right to” realize that thing.

Recognizing control as an important moral value leads to the question of what system of rights—what set of laws and policies—would best secure this important form of control for everyone, since everyone counts morally. It may seem to industrialists that an unregulated market provides the greatest freedom, because regulation and taxation reduce their ability to do what they want. But as I have mentioned, an unregulated market leaves many workers with little control over some important aspects of their lives, and their liberty also matters morally. So an argument appealing to the moral importance of control over one’s life must take both of these facts into account, along with others.

If we ask what conditions are most important for having meaningful liberty—meaningful control over one’s life—in a modern society, one of the first things that comes to mind is education, which enables one to understand one’s choices and to acquire the skills needed to pursue them, including the skills needed participate in the market economy. A second important factor is a strong social safety net, including unemployment benefits, which enable people to plan responsibly for having a family despite the uncertainties of employment in an efficient market economy. Neither of these is part of the “low taxes and limited government” program normally favored by libertarians. Perhaps a revised libertarianism might incorporate these policies, along with other measures needed to give meaningful liberty to all.2 As commonly understood, however, the libertarian political program should seem responsive to the value of individual liberty to only one group of people: those who believe that they have no need of such policies in order to exercise control over their lives, and imagine that no one else needs these things either (or else that it does not matter whether they have them).



• • •


It may be said that what is objectionable about laws requiring motorcyclists to wear helmets is not that when such laws are in force people lack control over important aspects of their lives. The objection is rather that such laws deprive people of control over their lives in a particular way, by coercively telling them what to do. So the basis of libertarianism might be taken to lie in the idea that no one should be coercively told what to do. As stated, this way of putting the objection is overly broad. Enforcing any law involves coercively telling people what to do. Certainly this is true of property laws, which libertarians favor. So the libertarian idea is a narrower one, that no one should be coercively told what to do as long as he or she is not violating the rights of others.

This intuitively appealing idea is the third route to libertarian conclusions, which starts not from the value of control over one’s life but from an idea of non-interference, given content by an enumerated list of rights. Since this idea is to serve as a test for the legitimacy of laws and social institutions, it is important that the rights in question be “natural” in the sense of not depending, for their own validity, on the legitimacy of institutions that establish them. Foremost among these rights claimed by libertarians are property rights and rights not to be subjected to force or violence. If every government action beyond the protection of such rights is objectionable coercion, then respecting these rights may seem to lead to policies of limited government and low taxes favored by libertarians.

The question, then, is why we should think that, independent of any law or social institution, people have these rights, and only these rights, and that these rights are the only basis of justified coercion. The strongest reason for thinking this seems to me to be that the existence of these rights seems to be the best explanation of the wrongfulness of certain actions that do seem to be clearly wrong, independent of any law or institution. Being attacked by a murderer, or being captured and enslaved are good examples of such wrongs. So does having the crops that one has raised in order to live through the winter taken away by a band of armed marauders. Examples of this kind seem to support the idea that there is a natural right to property.

Property rights require an institution that creates, defines, and enforces them, and is justified by the benefits it brings to all.

This brings us to a second interpretation of the distinction between negative and positive rights: Negative rights are rights not to be interfered with; positive rights are rights to be provided with certain benefits. A mechanism of enforcement is a positive benefit, whatever rights are being enforced. But the idea is that coercive enforcement is legitimate only if what is being enforced is simply that people not interfere with others who are not interfering with them.

But property rights go beyond mere rights to non-interference. We can see the difference by looking more closely at the example of the crop-stealing marauders. To explain why their action is wrong, we do not need to appeal to a right to property. The wrong is adequately explained as a violation of a narrower right not to be interfered with. To put the matter in Lockean terms: we have the right to act on the things of the world in order to preserve and improve our lives, as long as, in so doing, we do not encroach on others’ ability to do likewise. Others ought not to interfere with our doing this, and if they try to do so we are justified in using force to prevent them. The assumption in this example is that clearing land and growing crops in order to survive did not encroach on anyone, hence it is wrong for others to interfere with this.

These ideas of rightful use, wrongful interference, and rightful defense account for what Locke called natural property rights. But property rights as we commonly understand them are much stronger. They involve not only the right to use the things one owns, and to exclude others from taking them, whether or not we would not suffer from this loss. And property rights also include the power to give others similar rights over a thing, by transferring it to them.

By permissibly using something, I can make it wrong for you to take it, on Lockean grounds, because you would be interfering with my use. By ceasing to use it, and leaving it with the intention that you will use it, I can make it the case that you will not wrong me by using or destroying it. These ideas, included in the right of non-interference as I have construed it, are extremely plausible. But it is extremely implausible to think that I can, by an exercise of my will, confer upon you the right to exclude anyone else from the use of a thing, and give you the power to transfer this right to yet other people. Having this power would make me an odd kind of moral legislator. As David Hume argued, property rights require an institution that creates, defines, and enforces them, and is justified by the benefits it brings to all affected by it.3 It follows that if there are property rights that can be coercively enforced, justifiable coercion is not limited to the enforcement of “natural” rights. So a rights-based idea of mere non-interference does not provide a foundation for libertarian politics.



• • •


There are no property rights independent of some institution defining them, but it is generally agreed that there should be such an institution. The question is what form this institution should take. So-called “defenders of property rights” are best understood as arguing that it would be in some way better—more conducive to economic productivity, for example—for our institutions to define these rights in one way rather than another.

The threshold question here is how property rights must be defined in order to be justifiable to all who are required to accept them. Above that threshold there is the question of which of the various justifiable systems of property rights we should most prefer under current conditions. Considerations of productive efficiency—more specifically, the considerations of information flow and interest-group influence that I mentioned in Section 1—clearly have a role in determining the answer. So does the value, mentioned in Section 2, of individuals having control over their lives. Libertarians are correct in calling attention to these considerations, although there is no reason to believe that they are the only things that are relevant to deciding what form our institutions should take. Moreover, since these two ideas are distinct, and do not always point in the same direction, it is misleading to lump them together under a single heading of concern for “liberty.”


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Comments

1 |
the production goods coordinaton problem
Scanlon appears not to know Hayek's argument first hand.

In any case, he misses what Hayek identifies as the heart of the issue, the coordination of production goods and inputs to production to their most valued use -- something which involved changing and improving judgments of local conditions / opportunities and the significance of changing relative prices. This involves all sorts of unique perceptual skills embedded in local times and places, along with all sorts of know how about processes and alternatives.

In no sense can this be cashed out in terms of bits of "information", and Hayek emphasizes the the most important things are to be understood involve production process and inputs to production, and _not_ changing future possible consumer preferences.

Scanlon writes,

"no planner could acquire information about what consumers want to buy as efficiently as the market does."
— posted 10/19/2011 at 21:24 by Greg Ransom
2 |
This isn't Hayek, and doesn't come close.

More evidence, perhaps, that you haven't actually read Hayek, and this your own second hand (false) invention of "Hayek's" view.

Try again, Mr. Scanlon.

"Whatever policies they support, however, these considerations are not based on the value of liberty for an individual. This argument assigns individual liberty only an instrumental value: it is important only as a means to economic efficiency. “Efficiency” sounds important. But efficiency is only as important as the goal that is efficiently promoted. The value that Hayek’s argument takes as fundamental is the satisfaction of individual preferences. More specifically, it is the satisfaction of preferences that can be expressed through the market, the weights given to these preferences being determined by individuals’ willingness and ability to pay for their satisfaction. Since individuals with more money are willing to pay more for the satisfaction of a given preference, this means in practice that what is maximized is the satisfaction of preferences weighted by the wealth and income of those whose preferences they are."
— posted 10/19/2011 at 21:26 by Greg Ransom
3 |
What a Lovely Tilt
This is a gem of an article, precise, poignant, and compelling--but quixotic. The differences (and perhaps even mutual exclusiveness) between efficiency-based arguments and individualism-based arguments for liberty are sadly neglected in the public sphere, and I'm grateful to see them laid out so beautifully here. But I'm afraid that the growth of libertarian argumentation currently (have you watched the Fox Business channel?) probably has little to do with philosophical convictions of any kind. Ideology and propaganda are intractable, and I will be surprised to see thoughtful rejections of libertarian-style defenses of the minimal state any time soon.
— posted 10/19/2011 at 22:19 by Jonathan Cohen
4 |
Confusions about property
Locke's is not the only theory of property on offer: cf.
http://tomkow.typepad.com/tomkowcom/2010/08/the-retributive-theory-of-propety.html
— posted 10/19/2011 at 22:34 by tomkow
5 |
Tus huy has not real Hayek
Mr Scanlon,

I strongly advice you to read Hayek before writing about what Hayek said.
— posted 10/19/2011 at 22:44 by Aparicio
6 |
Discovery, the growth of knowledge & protected domains
Hayek emphasizes the the growth of knowledge, discovery and the importance of protected domains and private plans, and the unfolding of these.

Hayek rejects the idea of "given" preferences or bits of "given" information.

He rejects Scanlon type conservative sclerosis where discovery processes are jammed and roadblocked by interest group and confirmation biased stipulations of "the good" as defined by favored groups demanding privileges protecting them from changes driven by coordination to the wider social environment.

Imagine if the world of science or ideas was fixed by conceptions of threated thinkers whose ideas were being challenged by superior rivals -- and these thinkers were demanding controls and subsudies to "cushion" and protect them from adapting to a changing scientific and intellectual environment, changes which threatened their wealth and status derived from increasingly archaic conceptions and practices rejected by everyone else ....
— posted 10/20/2011 at 00:11 by Greg Ransom
7 |
Greg, could you explain how Scanlon's misreading of Hayek affects his argument? It is still true, is it not, that arguments for the superior efficiency of markets (derived from Hayek or not) do not by themselves show that a libertarian market economy is to be preferred, because efficiency must be balanced against other concerns, like liberty?
— posted 10/20/2011 at 07:00 by John Goodman
8 |
Or, perhaps we could simply say that Hayek's notions are antithetical to the broad thrust of American history and were the product of man scared and ashamed by his own country's fall to fascism. Hayek's presentist notions of politics and economics he included in his historical analysis in the 1940s have little application to the United States, except in that they appear to offer neat little solutions to large problems which accounts for their broad appeal. Unfortunately for Hayek, their unworkability in the real world means that libertarians are wooly-headed dreamers just like those promoting true socialism. But hey, it gives people something to talk about, even if they don't understand a word of it.
— posted 10/20/2011 at 11:39 by CCFK
9 |
Defining interference, i.e. "encroachment"
As a non-libertarian I think this is nice article. I particularly like the point that we can explain our intuitions about the crop marauders without needing to resort to a libertarian-style natural right to property.

Instead, Scanlon proposes that we can explain our intuitions via a more limited right to non-interference. In Scanlon's words: "we have the right to act on the things of the world in order to preserve and improve our lives, as long as, in so doing, we do not encroach on others’ ability to do likewise."

I take the idea to be that if someone sneaks away with some of your harvest (when you are sleeping, say), then that person has encroached on your ability to preserve and improve yourself, even though no physical coercion against your physical person was used.

I'm curious about the boundaries of this notion of encroachment, though, once we broaden it beyond physical coercion, as is done in this example.

For instance, I can imagine a libertarian replying to Scanlon with the following scenario. Suppose you and I and others live in a state of nature, and in this state I'm meeting my needs by growing bananas and trading them with others for goods they produce. Then suppose you decide to start trading bananas too. Suppose further that being a much better farmer than I am (or maybe, living in an area with more sunlight), you can demand less by way of exchange goods for your bananas. So now many fewer people are willing to trade with me, since they prefer to trade with you instead. I'll have to match your lower exchange demands and as a result my well-being will take a significant hit.

Without further details (nothing funny is going on, let's say, such as near monopoly access enjoyed by you to the local freshwater source), I'm inclined to say -- even as a non-libertarian -- that your behavior does not "encroach" on my ability to preserve and improve myself; instead, it is legitimate competition.

But can I derive this conclusion from the notion of encroachment itself?

Libertarians will say: your behavior is not encroachment because your behavior does not interfere with my natural right to property in my bananas. So, they will say, we need a notion of property rights before we can say what is and what is not encroachment.

I'd be curious to hear how Prof. Scanlon would respond to a libertarian rebuttal on these lines.
— posted 10/20/2011 at 13:11 by Craig
10 |
Director, Center for Ethics in Public Life UMSL
The simple version of an argument to be used in a similar vein to Scanlon against (popular) libertarianism:
Libertarianism places government on one end of a scale and freedom at the other, drawing out the simple equation that less government equals more freedom. The problem with the argument is neatly illustrated by Scanlon's "marauders" example. By restricting the freedom of your neighbor to kill you and take your crops, the government gives you the freedom to plant crops confident in the knowledge that you will be able to reap what you sow. By taking away some freedoms government provides others. By taking away your freedom to, say, have control over the entirety of your gross income (via income taxes) the government gives you the freedom to drive on public roads, eat safe food, have public safety resources, etc.....
The equation less government=more freedom is simply false. It has always been an exchange between freedoms, that is what makes the choice so contentious and difficult.
— posted 10/20/2011 at 13:24 by Wally Siewert
11 |
Theft
Murauding bands of thieves stealing crops? What bands of thieves would go around stealing crops? "Yo, Man while were out here scoopin' up these ears of corn, grabs some of dosse carrots." Jeez the argument is stupid no one has to protect crops because of their low value in "mauradable" quantities. Things of greater value can more easily be secured. I know that's not what the article is about but it's still a dumb sceanario. Crop thieves are just that, they are criminals they are steeling someone's property. In any system they would still be criminals. Doesn't matter how you define rights.
— posted 10/20/2011 at 14:28 by Anthony Lima
12 |
Negative Freedom
Wally,
But a libertarian may give this response: "...but you have misunderstood our arguments. We don't say less government = more freedom. Our "simple equation" is less government equals more negative freedom. The two examples that you raised gloss over this important distinction."
— posted 10/20/2011 at 14:51 by Abiye Teklemariam
13 |
What have I missed?
"But it is extremely implausible to think that I can, by an exercise of my will, confer upon you the right to exclude anyone else from the use of a thing, and give you the power to transfer this right to yet other people. Having this power would make me an odd kind of moral legislator."

I don't see how this follows?
— posted 10/20/2011 at 16:33 by GAS
14 |
Privileging discovery, individual plans & growth vs neoclassical welfare theorems
Hayek's argument is about the conditions necessary for coordination and individual plan success & adaptation via discovery, learning & judgment evolution -- it's also about growth and evolution in the widest dimensions, e.g. moral, ethical, ascetic, personal, etc. And these are part of the same process and, as Hayek explicates the process, cannot be separated into individual parts and "arguments'. Again, Hayek _attacks_ and offers an _alternative to_ the neoclassical / welfare econonics construction of given "information" / "preferences" / "inputs" in efficient equilibrium. Read, for example, Hayek's "Competition as a Discovery Procedure" in his _New Studies_ or his "The Meaning of Competition" in his _Individualism and Economic Order_ or his _Law, Legislation and Liberty_.

In other words, in Hayek there is no meaningful separation between arguments that give liberty an instrumental value from arguments that appeal to its value for the person whose liberty it is.

If there is an "instrumental value" argument in Hayek, it is about created conditions in which people best able discover, adjust, and carry out their plans -- and do so in coordination with others doing the same. And for Hayek this ability to discover new ends and carry out plans and make improvements for ones family or others (within a mutually coordinated system) _is_ of central value for the person whose liberty it is.

Hayek very directly rejects the neoclassical economics of Paul Samuelson which is all about the maximization of "preference satisfaction" or some given set of "material goods". For an account of Hayek "plan coordination" alternative, contrasted directly with neoclassical economics, you might see Roy Cordato Welfare Economics and Externalities in an Open Ended Universe or Esteban Thomas, _Prices and Knowledge_.

Hayek does point out that there are significant material consequences to institutional structures which restrict folks ability to plan, discover, adapt, compete, and adjust their plans to others -- and fail to provide the structures which make this possible. Hayek is concerned in the first instance, however, is with the significance of all this for individual plan makers, whatever their evolving plans might be -- even if they have very limited "material" interests. The classic liberal system and markets institutions in the first instance make it possible for people to grow in all sorts of dimensions -- and even what you call the "material" dimension is not fixed and has no fixed boundaries, and is open to growth and discovery.

In short, Hayek's model isn't an Arrow / Samuelson / freshman textbook preference satisfaction maximization model where "the market" is justified by the "efficiency" conditions of a mathematical construct were given "information" is magically communicated from "consumers" to "producers" and given "material goods" are shuttled about from "agent" to "agent" in the "model".

Hayek shows that central planning "can't deliver the goods" but he _doesn't_ use the Arrow / Samuelson / Lerner math construct to show it. He uses a process mechanism grounded in general rules of law, plan coordination, and learning / adaptation in the social context of prices made possible by liberal rules. Similarly, his "justification" for classic liberalism is significantly wider than that imaged by Arrow / Samuelson or welfare economics -- in large part, the justification comes from how the system allows for discovery and evolution of all sorts, made possible in large part by the securing of private domains of individual plan development and execution, domains which are coordinated with untold billions of others as only a liberal system can achieve.
— posted 10/20/2011 at 16:37 by Greg Ransom
15 |
Boundaries for individual plans vs orders from above
In Hayek, these elements: 1) the value of control over one’s life; 2) non-interference; and 3) widely distributed material bounty, are not separable elements. They fundamentally and by and large are made possible by the same underlying institutional requirements -- negative rules of just conduct, classical liberal principles, and evolved general rules and laws. And the, in various way, are mutually supporting and self-reinforcing. They go hand in hand and they are elements in something of a virtuous circle.

The point is that negative rules and very different from positive stipulative commands -- where negatives rules merely provide boundaries allowing all at once at once for discovery, growth and mutual coordination, positive stipulative commands are close-ends and fixed in terms of the givens assumed by the stipulative commands. Think of the difference between Carnap's stipulative definitions of concepts versus Wittgenstein's general rules for the use of words, defined by practice and not by prior "givens" in a construction.
— posted 10/20/2011 at 16:39 by Greg Ransom
16 |
replying to Goodman
I posted the above in reply to John Goodman. I've also sent them privately to professor Scanlon.
— posted 10/20/2011 at 16:40 by Greg Ransom
17 |
Engage the argument
I'm disappointed by the comments so far, in that they generally fail to engage the argument Scanlon is presenting.

Can some libertarian out there offer (1) a substantive conception of liberty and show how it (2) grounds libertarian policies of limited government and lower taxes? That's the challenge that Scanlon has made to you.
— posted 10/20/2011 at 16:47 by Otis Booth
18 |
Otis, go read a book
Otis, Scanlon has been directly engaged, on his central conceit that there is a clean and meaningful distinction between arguments that give liberty an instrumental value from arguments that appeal to its value for the person whose liberty it is.

But this is hard stuff with lots of dimensions, and in many ways little shared common background understanding shared between they mental world of analytical philosophy with its simple constructed moral "theories" and "justifications" and the rich explanatory and descriptive framework of the classical liberals.

To address the demands you make, Otis, Hayek wrote several books of several hundred pages each:

_The Constitution of Liberty_

and

_Law, Legislation & Liberty_

If you are sincere, I might suggest you pick up a copy and grapple with the content.

Again, these are rich and complex things.

A simple stipulated definition or "theory" doesn't take us very far, and it likely to do more harm than good.
— posted 10/20/2011 at 17:03 by Greg Ransom
19 |
Although it's true that Hayek's defense of the market differs from the general equilibrium theory developed by Arrow, Debreu, and others, the latter theory illuminates some of the shortcomings of the Hayekian view. Hayek stressed the role of prices in conveying information to consumers and produces, but, as Arrow emphasizes, real-world markets are radically incomplete, lacking, among many other things, comprehensive futures markets in contingent claims.

Arrow made a case for the government's role in health insurance and medical care on the grounds that these markets were missing several things necessary for efficiency, such as complete information the absence of which gives rise to adverse selection, moral hazard, and other maladies.

And, to conclude, one can find in Hayek’s own words some sympathy for the argument advanced by Professor Scanlon: “There is no reason why, in a society which has reached the general level of wealth ours has, the first kind of security should not be guaranteed to all without endangering general freedom; that is: some minimum of food, shelter and clothing, sufficient to preserve health. Nor is there any reason why the state should not help to organize a comprehensive system of social insurance in providing for those common hazards of life against which few can make adequate provision.”
— posted 10/20/2011 at 17:48 by Greg Hill
20 |
http://www.bawdyhouse.wordpress.com
But it is extremely implausible to think that I can, by an exercise of my will, confer upon you the right to exclude anyone else from the use of a thing, and give you the power to transfer this right to yet other people

This is an incoherent argument. It demands more than is necessary. The solution is inherent in the principle of liberty. If "this thing" is mine, and I would like to give it to you, I am at liberty to give it and it is wrong for anyone to stop me from offering it to you. And if you would like to receive it, you are at liberty to accept my offer and it is wrong for anyone to stop you from accepting it. And then "this thing" is yours, and you are at liberty to use it as you wish.

It is not that "I" have "conferred rights" upon you, but that each of us independently has those rights over whatever things are ours, and particularly over our voluntary exchanges.

I'm not a rights-based libertarian myself (I think natural rights are, to borrow a phrase, nonsense on stilts), but from a natural rights standpoint this is simple--no individual is ever conferring the rights on each other.

From the standpoint Scanlon takes (and with which I agree), that institutions are necessary for rights to exist, it is no less difficult. In a system of liberty the social institutions have conferred those rights, so that yet again it is incoherent to say that "I confer rights upon you" when I give you some thing.
— posted 10/20/2011 at 18:28 by James Hanley
21 |
A thesis Prof. Scanlon advised on this very subject
Arguing that rights do not come from "values" at all:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/19013558/Libertarian-Rights
— posted 10/20/2011 at 19:33 by Alex Harris
22 |
Greg Hill
Greg Hill account of Hayek contains the same fallacies as Scanlon's -- he assumes a vision of the functioning of price signals and market processes that Hayek does not hold. Hayek's 1937 article and his 1929 book make it clear that he rejects idea of equating the learning and communication mechanism with the formal equilibrium construct.

Hayek's mechanism functions in the real world and does not assume any perfections or any completeness and it rejects the idea of "information" as a set of "givens" moving about like bits in a box.

You are using the bogus/false Arrow picture of "Hayek's argument" which exists only in Arrows mind. See the E. Thomas book or read some Hayek besides his usually misread 1945 article.
— posted 10/20/2011 at 19:36 by Greg Ransom
23 |
Greg Ransom, your "oh oh but that's not the TRUE marx, You've got to read the unpublished german-russian Geschwunden manuscripts, obviously" style of replies fall short. Look, if you have arguments present them clearly and in a compact manner.
— posted 10/20/2011 at 21:26 by Jonah
24 |
Mr. Ransom,

I didn't say Hayek shared Arrow's general equilibrium view; I said Arrow's theory is helpful for understanding the deficiencies in Hayek's view.
— posted 10/20/2011 at 21:30 by Greg Hill
25 |
I'd like to see Scanlon directly address libertarians who agree on nothing more than desiring a legal system with the primary purpose of mutually protecting everybody from those who threaten violent force.

This type of libertarianism is minimal in defending only against threats of violence but universal in protecting everyone from them:

-even if it's not economically efficient

-even if "rights" are merely an unprovable philosophical construct

-even if other people may sometimes feel coerced or controlled in situations without any threat of violence

-even if "liberty" and "freedom" are merely words without metaphysical power

This sort of libertarianism is merely an attempt to extend minimal mutual toleration in a world where we all have passionate disagreements about important things.

Of course, in the real world there's no way to objectively prove who is the instigator of violence and who is resorting to violence only to defend themselves. So from a practical standpoint, this sort of legal system would need to ask randomly selected groups of people, such as juries, to do their reasonable best in fairly judging disputes about who made the first threats and "started the fight". And history has shown that this sort of system can actually work.
— posted 10/20/2011 at 22:35 by Christopher John Brennan
26 |
There is a very simple empirical fact which completely demolishs the libertarian argument.
In texas, there is little or no zoning; you can put a chemical factory next to a preshool.
and what is the very first thing people in texas do when they have money ?
they move to a gated community, where strict property laws of all sorts, like how often you have to mow your grass, are enforced.

In other words, people want gov't to regulate the savage within us all; people say they want liberty but it isn't actually true; usually what they mean is that they want to do what they want, and screw someone else - like NPR recently, doing a thing on the GOP idea that gov't regs hurt biz; they had a guy with a metal plating biz complaining about regs.
Does anyone else on this blow know enough chemnistry to know how toxis metal plating solutions can be ?
— posted 10/20/2011 at 22:52 by ezra abrams
27 |
Greg Hill II
Greg, you did nothing of the kind. You showed how Arrow showed deficiencies in Arrow\'s own equilibrium construct / welfare theorem / effeciency justification of the market. Hayek rejects that picture of the market -- Hayek\'s account of the causal mechanism of the market and the price signal system is an explanatory rival to Arrow\'s.

You are making fundamental mistakes in explicating or understanding Hayek -- Arrow\'s work might tell us something but you begin with a patently false premise in making your inference that it applies to Hayek the way it applies to Arrow\'s own formal \"information\" construct.
— posted 10/20/2011 at 23:15 by Greg Ransom
28 |
Trinities...
I appreciate Greg Ransom's recommendations to read more deeply in Hayek. And I understand, at least, the appeal of a perichoretic notion of liberty as 1) promoter of discovery, 2) value as control over one's life, 3) distributor of material bounty, etc. I mean, it's a nice theological tactic, that something is three and one.

But Scanlon's question still hasn't been answered. You can say, as so very very many have in the face of analytic philosophical frameworks, that it is a shallow, dry way of framing political and social thought. But what you can't do is just repeat "they all work together," "they aren't separate," they're a "virtuous circle" and think that is an answer to Scanlon's question. At some point you have to sort out what is bringing about the desired effect, what is desired, and what should be desired. If, as Ransom directly states, Hayek's thought doesn't break down into "arguments," then just say Hayek is making an empirical claim about what system produces what effects via discovery and evolution (allowing full berth for those effects as economic, moral, political, etc.) But that's different from the philosophical argument about WHY that process of evolution should be adopted. It's perfectly consistent with Ransom's description of Hayek, for instance, to accept the cumulative, social-historical Gestalt of Hayek's model and still reject the whole thing as a model for human life.
I mean, you can't make Hayek into Hegel (what with the evolving concepts along multiple cultural axes, a system whose parts can't be isolated into arguments, no discrete "givens," values and social relationships reinforcing and shaping one another, etc.) and then wonder why analytic political philosophy still taps it foot waiting for a normative claim.

I'll read more Hayek
— posted 10/21/2011 at 00:50 by Boyle then let Simmel
29 |
Mr. Ransom,

You're not going to convince anyone who doesn't already share your view by saying things like "You are making fundamental mistakes in explicating or understanding Hayek."

And you're going to ensure the isolation of (your version of) the Hayekian school of thought by insisting that Arrow's work (not to mention that of many others) simply can't be brought to bear upon Hayek's understanding of how prices and markets work. Hayek says prices convey information. Arrow emphasizes that many prices are missing. Do you really think these are just two ships passing in the night?
— posted 10/21/2011 at 01:53 by Greg Hill
30 |
Response to Trinities
...my thoughts exactly, and worded better than I could have.

Scanlon put forward arguments. "Read more Hayek" doesn't answer them. Only counterarguments can. I haven't seen them.
— posted 10/21/2011 at 02:10 by Bravin Neff
31 |
One of the greatest myths perpetuated by US Liberals ( comparable to European SocialDemocrats, socialists and Green) is that Europe in general and Sweden in particular became such great societies because of SocialDemocratic policies. In fact the opposite is true, the became greet despite SocialDemocratic policies.

If you want to read how destructive these policies are please read the following academic paper. 

Further studies in Sweden, since Sweden had the worlds largest public sector and gphighest public spending, has been done on loss of GDP growth and public sector spending. According to Swedish research each increase of public sector spending by 10% cuts GDP growth by 0.5-1%. 

We can compare SocialDemocratic policies to free market policies with a Hayekian welfare state with compulsory insurance by comparing Sweden and Switzerland. SocialDemocratic policies cut 1/3 of GDP growth without creating any extra benefits. http://bit.ly/oizNCF


“Economic Growth and the Swedish Model” , Magnus Henrekson, Lars Jonung, Joakim Stymne 2004 http://bit.ly/nUur8J

 Introduction

 Abstract: 

"We examine the growth performance of Sweden in the
post-World War II period, focusing on explaining the relative
decline of economic growth in Sweden since the early 1970s. The
hypothesis that the relative decline is a consequence of productivity
catch-up is rejected. A number of potential ”ultimate” causes behind
the slowdown are explored. An increasingly inefficient process of
capital formation; a shrinking share of the economy being exposed
to international competition; long-run negative effects of activist
 policies; rapid growth of the public sector;
deteriorating incentives for human capital formation; and weak
incentives for implementing the results of R&D efforts are all part
of the story. The evidence suggests that the incentive structure
created by ”the Swedish model” made Sweden less successful in
adapting to the shocks of the 1970s and 1980s than other OECD
countries."


The Rise, Fall and Revival of the Swedish Welfare State: What are the Policy Lessons from Sweden?

http://bit.ly/qM1hAV

Andreas Bergh 
Lund University - Department of Economics; Research Institute of Industrial Economics (IFN)




Abstract:      
This paper discusses a number of questions with regard to Sweden’s economic and political development: How did Sweden become rich? What explains Sweden’s high level of income equality? What were the causes of Sweden’s problems from 1970 to 1995? How is it possible that Sweden, since the crisis of the early 1990s, is growing faster than most EU countries despite its high taxes and generous welfare state? These questions are analyzed using recent insights from institutional economics, as well as studies of inequality and economic growth. The main conclusion is that there is little, if any, Swedish exceptionalism: Sweden became rich because of well-functioning capitalist institutions, and inequality was low before the expansion of the welfare state. The recent favorable growth record of Sweden, including the period of financial stress (2008-2010), is a likely outcome of a number of far-reaching structural reforms implemented in the 1980s and 90s.
— posted 10/21/2011 at 02:15 by Old Whig
32 |
More Greg Hill
A series of strawmen and red herrings doesn't make an argument, Greg.

Read a book or two or some Hayek to confirm for yourself that Arrow isn't Hayek. You might start with Thomas's Prices and Knowledge and Don Lavoie's Rivalry and Central Planning.

Mainstream economists have never provided a non-pathological account of what good the Arrow equilibrium construct is as part of a causal / explanatory science -- there is an extensive literature on this problem.

So the significance of "missing markets" implied by a construction whose significance to the explanation of the real world has never successfully been establish is simply piling one conundrum on top of an existing conundrum.

Of course, Hayek has offered an account of the role of the tautological equilibrium construct in the explanatory strategy of economics -- hint, it ain't Arrow's. But you can't find a economist competent to enough on the topic to identify it, much less describe it.

But if we now attempt to divine the significance of Arrow's missing markets problem for Hayek's non-Arrow process mechansim, you've got two layers of unsolved pathology used as a carnival circus mirror for "critically analyzing" an explanatory frame that REJECTS the causal / explanatory functionality of the Arrow equilibrium construct.

The prices Hayek is talking about are actual prices in the real world.

The "prices" that Arrow is talking about are imaginary artifacts in an imaginary math construct.

These really are two ships passing in the night.

The task is to figure out how they in any manner at all engage each other.

That task has hardly been undertaken, much less resolved.

And the "missing markets" topic is just one more level of "concentric circles" built on top of an artificial construct taking us farther away from reality -- what relevance it has for reality is again an essentially contested unresolved problem whose significance lacks any consensus.

— posted 10/21/2011 at 02:47 by Greg Ransom
33 |
Greg Hill, yet more
I simply made no such insistence:

"insisting that Arrow's work (not to mention that of many others) simply can't be brought to bear upon Hayek's understanding of how prices and markets work."

You are simply making up claims I haven't made.

How does that help anything?
— posted 10/21/2011 at 03:08 by Greg Ransom
34 |
Probably the best response to this article...
...at least that I am aware of can be found here:

http://millergd.blogspot.com/2011/10/new-mises-pathetic-attempt-to-refute.html
— posted 10/21/2011 at 04:19 by RJ Miller
35 |
Greg Ransom
Please show me how Hayek is talking about _actual_ prices in the _real_ world. Prove that. Illustrate it.

All bluster and ideology.
— posted 10/21/2011 at 12:54 by G Norris
36 |
go away, trolls
G Norris, go back in your troll hole.
— posted 10/21/2011 at 13:46 by Greg Ransom
37 |
All the prices?
Greg:

Are you really going to claim that all the "actual prices in the real world" are known? That there aren't many valuable things for which markets provide mixed or incomplete signals about what their value is? And that this never poses any significant economic problems?
— posted 10/21/2011 at 14:29 by Bobcat
38 |
Bobcat, another troll?
Of course I don't claim that, Bobcat.

This seems like the sort of outrageously absurd misreadingS I've come to expect from Hayek-hating leftist trolls. Are you one of them "Bobcat"?
— posted 10/21/2011 at 17:03 by Greg Ransom
39 |
Old Whig: the two sources you cite are from right-wing fringe in contemporary swedish socio-economic research. Their views are far from widely accepted. They're on the contrary widely disputed.

For a more mainstream introduction to topics on social democracy and the welfare state with an eye to Sweden see Rothstein, Just Institutions Matter and Quality of Goverment.
— posted 10/21/2011 at 21:32 by Jonah
40 |
Libertarianism isn't perfect, just better than the alternatives
As this essay points out, there isn't an argument that derives libertarian policy prescriptions from the premise that there is value in individual liberty in the same way that a mathematical proof derives a conclusion from some set of axioms.

That's completely true, but too frequently followed by the non-sequitur that libertarians should abandon libertarianism. The alternative to libertarianism would be some other political philosophy and all other political philosophies suffer from the same defiency to an even greater extent.

As an aside, Scanlon's essay ignores the simplest argument for libertarianism: Non-libertarian political philosophies call for people in the government to commit acts that would be immoral for people outside of the government to commit. Any act which is immoral for people outside of the government to commit is also immoral for people inside the government to commit. Therefore, Non-libertarian political philosophies call for people in the government to commit immoral acts.
— posted 10/23/2011 at 03:39 by James
41 |
Libertarians is responsible for America's Decline
James,

What are these different political philosophies to which you refer? Please don't answer with: "They are so many and this is not the place to go over them. I recommend reading Hayek's Law, Legislation, and Liberty in addition to his Constitution of Liberty and Road to Serfdom." I've already wasted my time doing that. And even if I had not, I'd rather save a nice role of Charmin toilet paper than this work of philosophically "rigorous" garbage that has been pushing the agenda of the Koch brothers as far as I can remember.

All to say, libertarians cannot argue for shit. This thread is a testament to that--someone please put me out of my misery and address Scanlon's arguments. If you need help understanding Scanlon's arguments, just say so. Don't pretend like you do and respond with philosophical rubbish.

If you cannot manage that, at least give an example for your "simplest argument for libertarianism", specifically an "act which is immoral for people outside of the government" and inside the government. I hope my request is clear and can elucidate if need be.

Allow free markets? So that corporations can do whatever they please under the guise of "market efficiency"? I'll take "One of the Biggest Factors contributing to America's Decline" for 1000, Alex. Thank you.


— posted 10/24/2011 at 02:22 by Libertarianism = Koch brothers' agenda
42 |
By the way, it's called a free market for a reason. People voluntarily engage in economic transactions and both are better off after the transaction than before. Have you ever been better off after a transaction with the government?

People had almost complete control over their lives. 100 years ago people plowed the fields with horses, there were very few automobiles, windmills pumped water, people burned wood for heating and cooking. There were very few telephones. Most people rarely finished grammar school. Most rural areas had no electricity and people used candles or kerosene lamps for light. No hot water heaters. Cows were milked by hand, there were few if any refrigerators. Food was always fresh or rotten. People washed clothes by hand. If you got the flu or pneumonia you were as good as dead. Most babies were born at home. God help the woman that had a breach birth. Amazing what 100 years of freedom can do.
— posted 10/25/2011 at 02:16 by jorod
43 |
Good article, interesting comments. Hope I'm not being philosophically unsophisticated when I point out that the real world offer enough rebuttal of Hayek to settle the argument.

1. Corporations hate free markets, they will do everything to distort & monopolize them for more profit.

2. Corporations don't 'just' make products we demand. They can just as easily create demand by virtue of marketing & advertisement. It's been shown to be quite easily to sell the same products many times over for absurd sums via different names and niches.

3. Human nature is not solitary, but social. Sharing, security, equality and community is the public secret to happiness and well-being. The unregulated market offers none of that. Just stress, depressions, consumerism, anti-intellectualism, inequality.

4. Wall street has been shown to be no better at producing value than random chance. Value is jot created in capital markets, it'w created by innovation.

5. Innovations cames out of competitive internal government projects and funding, based on geopolitical motivations (WWII, Cold War, prestige) and scientific curiosity. Certainly private sector popularizes and advances something, after govenments have paid for it.

6. Big science doesn't come from private sector. With exceptions for DNA sequencing and garage physics, all the big science projects today are done by multi-nation government funded projects & universities which will fuel the innovations of the future.

6. Left on their own, people will not expand their horizons and aid beyond tribalism (generally). Governments cross borders via diplomacy and economic transcendence by making it possible to form coherent trade agreements and law. No more intermarrying into tribes of your daughters.

7. Violence declined because of the safety government offers, and wellfare states are consistently the best countries to live in, most educated, richest, safest, least polluted, more equal, etc.

I could go on, but reality trumps philosophy here. We all want small government and less taxes. These things are possible by abolishing resource war and casino financial markets, which we pay for. Not having a law so you can go without helmet on your motorbike increases no happiness (unless you are generally hated and you fall), but it not being would impact families negatively. Bikes are not forbidden, they are STILL deathtraps WITH helmets. Just less so.

But small gov doesn't mean you can impact basic rights. Well-being, self actualization trumps freedom every time. People can live (very happily, reality demonstrates the happiest even) with laws, they can't with lawlessness, insecurity and no education or healthcare.
— posted 10/25/2011 at 02:38 by Muffit
44 |
Puerile
What always strikes me with motorcycle-helmet libertarianism is the sheer callowness of it all. Can you imagine traveling to a country, be it in the Middle East today or to our own founding, where people are fighting and dying for their freedom, and spewing out this dreck without blushing in shame? A country has to enter a rather decadent period before this sort of political philosophy can be taken seriously.
— posted 10/26/2011 at 15:08 by Louis Bricious
45 |
Libertarian- Constitution
Most Libertarians can agree that the constitution is the defining document which includes the institutions that defend property rights. In no way should objectivism, or Ayn Rand's philosophies of self interest being the primary attribute of a free society, interfere with property rights. If one person needs an ear of corn, and another owns an entire field of corn, the first person has no right as defined by the constitution to steal that ear of corn as a means of pursuing their own self-interest. The constitution also limits the size of the state so that it can not exceed its definitive limitations, taking over more responsibilities than protecting the citizens, and re-enforcing property rights.
— posted 10/26/2011 at 19:23 by Marcus
46 |
Helmet wearing on public roads
The helmet laws pertain to the use of public roads, so obviously public authorities will dictate the terms. No such terms are dictated to those using the Indy 500--its the owners there who set them. Libertarian principles pertain to private realms, like one's right to commit suicide or speak out about helmet laws. Finally, a position that is so radical as the libertarian one cannot be usefully discussed in sound bites. Only mainstream positions can be.
— posted 10/31/2011 at 17:35 by Tibor R. Machan
47 |
Warning: the following video of Barrack Obama may be offensive to some viewers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6hvmWDYiCY
— posted 11/02/2011 at 17:32 by libertytreas
48 |
A Reply to Greg Ransom
"This seems like the sort of outrageously absurd misreadingS I've come to expect from Hayek-hating leftist trolls. Are you one of them "Bobcat"?" Greg Ranson

This is a (thinly-veiled) ad hominem attack.

I agree with other commenters calling for an actual deductive line of reasoning against Scanlon's claims. This is not to say that one might not exist. It adds nothing to this discourse on proper foundations for libertarianism, however, to simply say "Scanlon misinterprets Hayak" and then not explain why this is the case. Scanlon has made a substantive claim within this discourse, but you certainly do not help your case against him by committing weak attacks like the one quoted above and failing to show why he might have made an interpretive error.
— posted 12/01/2011 at 17:15 by JPL
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Notes (please click the footnote number to return to your place in the text):

1) Anarchy, State, and Utopia, p. 34, emphasis in original.

2) This may be the project pursued by the contributors to the blog Bleeding Heart Libertarians.

3) A Treatise of Human Nature, Book III, Part II, Sections II-IV.

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About the Author

T. M. Scanlon is Alford Professor of Natural Religion, Moral Philosophy, and Civil Polity at Harvard University and author, most recently, of Moral Dimensions: Permissibility, Meaning, Blame.

Libertarianism and Liberty, a forum on arguments for libertarian policy conclusions.

Joshua Cohen,
Always at the After Party

T.M. Scanlon,
A Good Start


   



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